An end is being played - cochonnet and three balls have been thrown. One team now challenges the validity of the circle size - it's too small - they call the arbitre - who agrees it is too small.
Is it:
a. Now a dead end.
b. Continue playing the end with a warning to the player who drew the circle?
c. Any other options??

Though the rules do not specify what to do in this particular instance, there is, I think, the "spirit of the rule" addressed in a similar instance (namely with Article 8: the throwing of the cochonnet an invalid distance). When the distance (or in this case, the diameter of the circle) is not contested after both teams have thrown a boule - it is my feeling that the diameter must be accepted as valid for that end - but on a following end, the contested circle cannot be reused. If, however, after the first boule is thrown by one team, and the opposing team has not yet thrown their first boule, either team can contest the diameter of the circle as being invalid - and if so, if must be re-drawn at a valid diameter from a central point of the original (invalid) circle.

But, as to what is done next, I cannot say. Either the first boule can be taken back, or left on the piste. If the cochonnet is moved (and not marked) then does it remain where it was moved? Perhaps a new addendum is needed for the rules.

Jeffrey Widen
-VP Michigan Petanque Club
www.michiganpetanque.com
-----------------------

Article 8 - If the cochonnet thrown, is stopped by the umpire, a player, a spectator, an animal or any moving object, it is not valid and must be re-thrown without being included in the three throws to which the player or the team is entitled.

After the throwing of the cochonnet and the first boule, an opponent still has the right to contest the validity of the Cochonnets position. If the objection is valid, both the cochonnet and the boule are re-thrown.

If the opponent has also played a boule the cochonnet is deemed valid and no objection can be accepted.

For the cochonnet to be thrown anew both teams must have accepted the throw as being illegal or the umpire must have declared it so. In either case the cochonnet must be re-throw.


Michael Emerson wrote:
------------------------------------

An end is being played - cochonnet and three balls have been thrown. One team now challenges the validity of the circle size - it's too small - they call the arbitre - who agrees it is too small.
Is it:
a. Now a dead end.
b. Continue playing the end with a warning to the player who drew the circle?
c. Any other options??

I beleive the spirit of Rule 8 covers this situation. If both teams accept the circle as valid then the end will not be restarted once the second team has thrown their first boule. Their acceptance can be taken as given, once they throw their first boule.
(a)The end will not be declared dead.
(B) if a warning is to be given ( and that's a tough call) should the warning not be given to both teams to take more attention with the circle size, as both teams continued to play with a circle of the wrong dimensions.
if the circle was called as wrong after only one boule had been played the circle is redrawn around it's original location and the coche and the first boule are picked up and thrown again in the same manner as would happen for a coche that was challenged as being an invalid distance etc and the first boule had been played.

Jeffrey Widen wrote:
------------------------------------

Though the rules do not specify what to do in this particular instance, there is, I think, the "spirit of the rule" addressed in a similar instance (namely with Article 8: the throwing of the cochonnet an invalid distance). When the distance (or in this case, the diameter of the circle) is not contested after both teams have thrown a boule - it is my feeling that the diameter must be accepted as valid for that end - but on a following end, the contested circle cannot be reused. If, however, after the first boule is thrown by one team, and the opposing team has not yet thrown their first boule, either team can contest the diameter of the circle as being invalid - and if so, if must be re-drawn at a valid diameter from a central point of the original (invalid) circle.

But, as to what is done next, I cannot say. Either the first boule can be taken back, or left on the piste. If the cochonnet is moved (and not marked) then does it remain where it was moved? Perhaps a new addendum is needed for the rules.

Jeffrey Widen
-VP Michigan Petanque Club
www.michiganpetanque.com
-----------------------

Article 8 - If the cochonnet thrown, is stopped by the umpire, a player, a spectator, an animal or any moving object, it is not valid and must be re-thrown without being included in the three throws to which the player or the team is entitled.

After the throwing of the cochonnet and the first boule, an opponent still has the right to contest the validity of the Cochonnets position. If the objection is valid, both the cochonnet and the boule are re-thrown.

If the opponent has also played a boule the cochonnet is deemed valid and no objection can be accepted.

For the cochonnet to be thrown anew both teams must have accepted the throw as being illegal or the umpire must have declared it so. In either case the cochonnet must be re-throw.


Michael Emerson wrote:
------------------------------------

An end is being played - cochonnet and three balls have been thrown. One team now challenges the validity of the circle size - it's too small - they call the arbitre - who agrees it is too small.
Is it:
a. Now a dead end.
b. Continue playing the end with a warning to the player who drew the circle?
c. Any other options??

Jeff: Your suggestion of the use of the spirit of the rule is a great answer. All players should see rules as a common base of control and apply it with a spirit of sportmanship and reality.
The importance of respecting the circle size rule, is as important as the applied "acceptance" or "refusal" decision.
Example: If a opponent has played a ball with the objective of controlling the approach area to the cochonnet;(example in a gully which rolls to the jack) then the ability to move left or right in the pointing circle become a illegal liberty.

First, it is my understanding, that the circle can be redrawn and made more visable as long as the same size and boundries are used. Secondly, If in discussion with the other captain you agree on the oversized/undersized circle; the spirit of equality should allow the correct size circle to be redrawn. I would approach the rule's limits. If undersize, make it the minimun size; or vise-versa.

My understanding of the rules is that the drawn circle is a game controlling rule; stating where, how, and the size of the circle which allows for fair play.
In this approach toward the rules and the spirit of the intention of the rule; I believe the arbitre will make a ruling as to the spirit of the opponents request and intention of the rule.

The uses of a rule to win a game is petty attitude and in the article on a captains attitude at
http://groups.msn.com/GameStrategy-jjt/captainscorner.msnw I explain that

the article writes " When we refer to a person as a winner, we do not mean one who makes someone else lose. To us, a winner is one who responds authentically by being credible, trustworthy, responsive, and genuine"

lets get real...

Enjoy the game not the win
John


Michael Emerson wrote:
------------------------------------

An end is being played - cochonnet and three balls have been thrown. One team now challenges the validity of the circle size - it's too small - they call the arbitre - who agrees it is too small.
Is it:
a. Now a dead end.
b. Continue playing the end with a warning to the player who drew the circle?
c. Any other options??

Thank you for the expansion of the sportsmanship idea. Sportsmanship and fairplay come into action when the specific rule is unclear. I hope we can all play to this high level.

Jeff.

J. Tupper wrote:
------------------------------------


Jeff: Your suggestion of the use of the spirit of the rule is a great answer. All players should see rules as a common base of control and apply it with a spirit of sportmanship and reality.
The importance of respecting the circle size rule, is as important as the applied "acceptance" or "refusal" decision.
Example: If a opponent has played a ball with the objective of controlling the approach area to the cochonnet;(example in a gully which rolls to the jack) then the ability to move left or right in the pointing circle become a illegal liberty.

First, it is my understanding, that the circle can be redrawn and made more visable as long as the same size and boundries are used. Secondly, If in discussion with the other captain you agree on the oversized/undersized circle; the spirit of equality should allow the correct size circle to be redrawn. I would approach the rule's limits. If undersize, make it the minimun size; or vise-versa.

My understanding of the rules is that the drawn circle is a game controlling rule; stating where, how, and the size of the circle which allows for fair play.
In this approach toward the rules and the spirit of the intention of the rule; I believe the arbitre will make a ruling as to the spirit of the opponents request and intention of the rule.

The uses of a rule to win a game is petty attitude and in the article on a captains attitude at
http://groups.msn.com/GameStrategy-jjt/captainscorner.msnw I explain that

the article writes " When we refer to a person as a winner, we do not mean one who makes someone else lose. To us, a winner is one who responds authentically by being credible, trustworthy, responsive, and genuine"

lets get real...

Enjoy the game not the win
John