I'm a little uncertain as to why players make the difference between a social game of petanque and a competitive game.I've read in this forum, a number of times, that "I ignore a foot being out of a circle in a social game".
Why?????
Who decides which rules to ignore in a social game and which rules to play by?
In a friendly game of rugby or football, would both teams decide to ignore the offside rule, because it's only a friendly game?
In a social nine holes of golf, could the players decide to concede any putt that only missed the hole by a couple of inches?
In petanque, at what point during a social game does a foot fault become noticeable? if the toes are out of the circle, is that acceptable?
How about half a foot over the line?
If the whole foot is out of the circle,
does that become worthy of a mention or comment?
It doesn't happen in most other sports, so if we are trying to make petanque an acceptable sport, why do we let 'social play' be played under different rules than 'competitive play'?
I'd welcome feedback.

I agree Andy. Social Petanque shouldn't have any of the official rules of Petanque eased, simply because people want to have fun. While playing a social game of petanque, one of the players had half of her foot outside of the throwing circle. I immediately slammed a 15-pound pile-driving hammer down on her rule offending toes. Boy, you can imagine she'll never forget THAT rule again! That is, when she gets that foot out of the cast in a few months. Also, just the other day, someone threw a cochon beyond the regulation 10-meters and then played the point. I took matters in hand by poking my fingers into his eye sockets - blinding him for life. He'll NEVER forget that rule! And then just today, someone picked up a boule before the official count of points was made. I pulled out a gun and shot him dead. That'll show him!

Of course, all these draconian measures I've taken to ensure that social petanque is treated as seriously as International Tournament Level Petanque has put me in a little pickle with 56 pending Litigations, many of which are criminal, and all civil. But it's all worthwhile. Why should anyone have the slightest ounce of pleasure and amusement in playing petanque outside the established rules.

Jeff Widen
VP Michigan Petanque Club.

============================
Andy Gilbert wrote:
------------------------------------

I'm a little uncertain as to why players make the difference between a social game of petanque and a competitive game.I've read in this forum, a number of times, that "I ignore a foot being out of a circle in a social game".
Why?????
Who decides which rules to ignore in a social game and which rules to play by?
In a friendly game of rugby or football, would both teams decide to ignore the offside rule, because it's only a friendly game?
In a social nine holes of golf, could the players decide to concede any putt that only missed the hole by a couple of inches?
In petanque, at what point during a social game does a foot fault become noticeable? if the toes are out of the circle, is that acceptable?
How about half a foot over the line?
If the whole foot is out of the circle,
does that become worthy of a mention or comment?
It doesn't happen in most other sports, so if we are trying to make petanque an acceptable sport, why do we let 'social play' be played under different rules than 'competitive play'?
I'd welcome feedback.

I agree with you, Andy. If we want petanque to be taken seriously - even to be an Olympic event in the near future, then we have to take it seriously ourselves.

Andy Gilbert wrote:
------------------------------------

I'm a little uncertain as to why players make the difference between a social game of petanque and a competitive game.I've read in this forum, a number of times, that "I ignore a foot being out of a circle in a social game".
Why?????
Who decides which rules to ignore in a social game and which rules to play by?
In a friendly game of rugby or football, would both teams decide to ignore the offside rule, because it's only a friendly game?
In a social nine holes of golf, could the players decide to concede any putt that only missed the hole by a couple of inches?
In petanque, at what point during a social game does a foot fault become noticeable? if the toes are out of the circle, is that acceptable?
How about half a foot over the line?
If the whole foot is out of the circle,
does that become worthy of a mention or comment?
It doesn't happen in most other sports, so if we are trying to make petanque an acceptable sport, why do we let 'social play' be played under different rules than 'competitive play'?
I'd welcome feedback.

Sorry but I do think it important to make a distinction between official matches and friendlies. Of course, in any sort of official tournament, it's important to respect and play to the rules.

In a 'friendly', it's much more important for players to agree amongst themselves how to play. An example: I've seen friendlies in France played by quite elderly people. ALL games are played 6 - 8m, no longer. The reason? because a lot of the elderly players can no longer shoot at 10m so everybody agrees to play short games.

If the jack is thrown too long, it's simply moved back to a shorter distance. Everybody is happy.

In contrast, I remember one instance in a so-called friendly game where one team threw the jack about 10m and played their 1st boule right on the jack. An opponent then stepped out the distance to the jack, declared it over 10m and picked up the jack and the oppoents' boule and threw them back to be replayed.

Apart from the fact that there was almost a fight, it shows how inappopriate and questionable it was "playing to the rules".

Regards,

Ray

Thanks jeff. I agree that shooting is too strong for some of the social players........Hanging is okay for a first offence but you have to consider ritual disembowelment if they continue to break the rule.
Jeff. I think you're missing the point i make.Petanque is just about the only sport i have played where the average weekend player can completely ignore the rules and get away with it.Let's ignore the use of the terms 'social' or 'fun game'. I have played social games for fun in other sports.Take golf for an example. it might be a fun game but you're still counting the score. if an oponent isn't playing to the rules, and they gain an unfair advantage they get penalised.That's why the rules are in place. So why should petanque be different? we play against an oponent, we count the points from each end and we declare one team a winner. yet you played to the rules and they didn't, and you are then happy to say congratulations to the opponents?
As VP of the michigan club, don't you have a duty to promote the game as a well run sport? letting some players 'cheat' is not a great advert for the game or a good way to take players to the next level of play.


Jeffrey Widen wrote:
------------------------------------

I agree Andy. Social Petanque shouldn't have any of the official rules of Petanque eased, simply because people want to have fun. While playing a social game of petanque, one of the players had half of her foot outside of the throwing circle. I immediately slammed a 15-pound pile-driving hammer down on her rule offending toes. Boy, you can imagine she'll never forget THAT rule again! That is, when she gets that foot out of the cast in a few months. Also, just the other day, someone threw a cochon beyond the regulation 10-meters and then played the point. I took matters in hand by poking my fingers into his eye sockets - blinding him for life. He'll NEVER forget that rule! And then just today, someone picked up a boule before the official count of points was made. I pulled out a gun and shot him dead. That'll show him!

Of course, all these draconian measures I've taken to ensure that social petanque is treated as seriously as International Tournament Level Petanque has put me in a little pickle with 56 pending Litigations, many of which are criminal, and all civil. But it's all worthwhile. Why should anyone have the slightest ounce of pleasure and amusement in playing petanque outside the established rules.

Jeff Widen
VP Michigan Petanque Club.

============================
Andy Gilbert wrote:
------------------------------------

I'm a little uncertain as to why players make the difference between a social game of petanque and a competitive game.I've read in this forum, a number of times, that "I ignore a foot being out of a circle in a social game".
Why?????
Who decides which rules to ignore in a social game and which rules to play by?
In a friendly game of rugby or football, would both teams decide to ignore the offside rule, because it's only a friendly game?
In a social nine holes of golf, could the players decide to concede any putt that only missed the hole by a couple of inches?
In petanque, at what point during a social game does a foot fault become noticeable? if the toes are out of the circle, is that acceptable?
How about half a foot over the line?
If the whole foot is out of the circle,
does that become worthy of a mention or comment?
It doesn't happen in most other sports, so if we are trying to make petanque an acceptable sport, why do we let 'social play' be played under different rules than 'competitive play'?
I'd welcome feedback.

Ray, in official matches, there are umpires who oversee the games. in lower level games it is down to the players themselves to police the rules.
I can comfortably accept that some of the rules may not be as stringently enforced as in the top level games. but does that allow for players to deliberatelty and knowingly break the rules
check the following scenarios.
it's a social game. your team has played all their boules and successfully built a wall directly in front of the coche as a defensive play strategy.
The player has half a foot out of the circle. do you say anything?
the player has all the foot out of the circle. do you say anything?
The player has both feet out of the circle. do you say anything?
The player has now stepped two feet to the left of the circle to get a better angle to play the next point. now do you say anything? If you still remain silent you have negated your teams strategy of defending the head. You played well, they cheated (or played outside the rules)
Keeping both feet reasonably within the circle is not an ageist item.
If both teams agree to play to only 8 metres for reasons of age, I don't have any problem with that. we do something similar, in the rules, for juniors and minimes etc.
I do have a problem with the statement that "In a 'friendly', it's much more important for players to agree amongst themselves how to play."

The concept of the players discussing before the game "we'll keep rules 2-12 and 17. 18. 21-26 are out and we'll only bother with 13, 14 and 15 if the light looks like fading" is faintly ludicrous.
On numerous occasions I have played social games with social players and been frowned at because I shot the ball out. the accompanying comment of 'it's only a friendly game' should give rise to the reply "a friendly game of what?"
Re the comment of the 10 meter end and the ball being picked up. you made the comment "Apart from the fact that there was almost a fight, it shows how inappopriate and questionable it was "playing to the rules".
To the contrary, that situation is well covered in the rules and if the players had been playing to the rules,and aware of the rules, the situation would probably not have arisen.

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Sorry but I do think it important to make a distinction between official matches and friendlies. Of course, in any sort of official tournament, it's important to respect and play to the rules.

In a 'friendly', it's much more important for players to agree amongst themselves how to play. An example: I've seen friendlies in France played by quite elderly people. ALL games are played 6 - 8m, no longer. The reason? because a lot of the elderly players can no longer shoot at 10m so everybody agrees to play short games.

If the jack is thrown too long, it's simply moved back to a shorter distance. Everybody is happy.

In contrast, I remember one instance in a so-called friendly game where one team threw the jack about 10m and played their 1st boule right on the jack. An opponent then stepped out the distance to the jack, declared it over 10m and picked up the jack and the oppoents' boule and threw them back to be replayed.

Apart from the fact that there was almost a fight, it shows how inappopriate and questionable it was "playing to the rules".

Regards,

Ray

Of course I was joking about the rather severe measures to be taken with rule offenders. But clearly, a distinction should be made at the beginning of any game/sport: Petanque, Basketball, even Poker - whether that particular session will be "by-the-book" or with certain allowed "relaxed rules."

Certainly all players of any sport must know how to play by the rules, but there are many situations where relaxing the rules makes sense - when you wish to add players to an on-going game is a great example. If you are playing doublets (2 vs. 2) and another player makes an appearance (a 5th player), then you usually mix them into the game, adjusting the boule distribution so each side is still throwing 6 boules. If you played by the rules, that 5th player couldn't play at all. Is that what we want petanque to be?

All I'm saying is that as long as all of the players know the rules, but decide before the game to play a variant of the rules - out of convenience for the health/ability of some of the players, or to include al players wishing to play - then why not?

We should remember that Petanque itself is a variation on earlier forms of boule, many of which involved running up to lines before the throw. The accepted variation of the rules in those games allowed for the inclusion of wounded/wheelchair bound players into the sport we now know today as Petanque.

Without bending the rules for certain circumstances, we'd all still be playing Bocce!!!!!

====================================

Andy Gilbert wrote:
------------------------------------

Ray, in official matches, there are umpires who oversee the games. in lower level games it is down to the players themselves to police the rules.
I can comfortably accept that some of the rules may not be as stringently enforced as in the top level games. but does that allow for players to deliberatelty and knowingly break the rules
check the following scenarios.
it's a social game. your team has played all their boules and successfully built a wall directly in front of the coche as a defensive play strategy.
The player has half a foot out of the circle. do you say anything?
the player has all the foot out of the circle. do you say anything?
The player has both feet out of the circle. do you say anything?
The player has now stepped two feet to the left of the circle to get a better angle to play the next point. now do you say anything? If you still remain silent you have negated your teams strategy of defending the head. You played well, they cheated (or played outside the rules)
Keeping both feet reasonably within the circle is not an ageist item.
If both teams agree to play to only 8 metres for reasons of age, I don't have any problem with that. we do something similar, in the rules, for juniors and minimes etc.
I do have a problem with the statement that "In a 'friendly', it's much more important for players to agree amongst themselves how to play."

The concept of the players discussing before the game "we'll keep rules 2-12 and 17. 18. 21-26 are out and we'll only bother with 13, 14 and 15 if the light looks like fading" is faintly ludicrous.
On numerous occasions I have played social games with social players and been frowned at because I shot the ball out. the accompanying comment of 'it's only a friendly game' should give rise to the reply "a friendly game of what?"
Re the comment of the 10 meter end and the ball being picked up. you made the comment "Apart from the fact that there was almost a fight, it shows how inappopriate and questionable it was "playing to the rules".
To the contrary, that situation is well covered in the rules and if the players had been playing to the rules,and aware of the rules, the situation would probably not have arisen.

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Sorry but I do think it important to make a distinction between official matches and friendlies. Of course, in any sort of official tournament, it's important to respect and play to the rules.

In a 'friendly', it's much more important for players to agree amongst themselves how to play. An example: I've seen friendlies in France played by quite elderly people. ALL games are played 6 - 8m, no longer. The reason? because a lot of the elderly players can no longer shoot at 10m so everybody agrees to play short games.

If the jack is thrown too long, it's simply moved back to a shorter distance. Everybody is happy.

In contrast, I remember one instance in a so-called friendly game where one team threw the jack about 10m and played their 1st boule right on the jack. An opponent then stepped out the distance to the jack, declared it over 10m and picked up the jack and the oppoents' boule and threw them back to be replayed.

Apart from the fact that there was almost a fight, it shows how inappopriate and questionable it was "playing to the rules".

Regards,

Ray

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray

Dear Ray,

You and I will never agree about the rules but the rules are there for reasons of fairness to all. If some are playing to all the rules and others are ignoring the rules, where is the fairness in that? A situation arose in a match I was playing in yesterday, where the coche was thrown a little too long for the thrower's liking. Instead of measuring the length, the person drew another circle nearer to where the coche had landed. This was despite my trying to tell the person that the length was probably less than 10 metres and therefore should have been measured. It was indeed a "friendly" game (whatever that means!) so the thrower should at least have asked the opposing team if it was all right to either rethrow the coche or draw another circle, before doing either of those. Would anything like that have been permitted in any other sport? I doubt it.

Also, I think we have to remember "When in Rome, do as the Romans do", or in this case, when in Britain, play to British rules.

Happy bouling!

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara,

Sorry, but you have to accept that the reason players may occasionally move the jack or the circle is because it's a FRIENDLY game. Playing to the strictest, competition rules is just not necessary or appropriate.

I think you'll find it to everybody's enjoyment if you play in the SPIRIT of the game and not stick rigidily to the letter of the law in every single instance, regardless of circumstances.

For example, as was quite rightly pointed out in another posting, are you NEVER going to allow a 5th player to particiate, "because it's against the rules"?

Regards,

ray

Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Ray Ager wrote:

Hi Ray. Barbara, despite Rays assertions, you don't have to accept players moving the circles and breaking the rules, just because it's a 'friendly' game.I again raise my original point that other sports have friendly games and all adhere to the rules.If both sides are playing a game and are counting the points and declaring a winner then the rules must be used for both sides to play to. Ray, A friendly game can still be played at the highest level.Not playing to the reasonable strictures of the rules is only playing a variation of the game of petanque. I'm with Barbara on this one.
------------------------------------

Dear Barbara,

Sorry, but you have to accept that the reason players may occasionally move the jack or the circle is because it's a FRIENDLY game. Playing to the strictest, competition rules is just not necessary or appropriate.

I think you'll find it to everybody's enjoyment if you play in the SPIRIT of the game and not stick rigidily to the letter of the law in every single instance, regardless of circumstances.

For example, as was quite rightly pointed out in another posting, are you NEVER going to allow a 5th player to particiate, "because it's against the rules"?

Regards,

ray

Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Andy Gilbert wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:

Hi Ray. Barbara, despite Rays assertions, you don't have to accept players moving the circles and breaking the rules, just because it's a 'friendly' game.I again raise my original point that other sports have friendly games and all adhere to the rules.If both sides are playing a game and are counting the points and declaring a winner then the rules must be used for both sides to play to. Ray, A friendly game can still be played at the highest level.Not playing to the reasonable strictures of the rules is only playing a variation of the game of petanque. I'm with Barbara on this one.
------------------------------------

Dear Barbara,

Sorry, but you have to accept that the reason players may occasionally move the jack or the circle is because it's a FRIENDLY game. Playing to the strictest, competition rules is just not necessary or appropriate.

I think you'll find it to everybody's enjoyment if you play in the SPIRIT of the game and not stick rigidily to the letter of the law in every single instance, regardless of circumstances.

For example, as was quite rightly pointed out in another posting, are you NEVER going to allow a 5th player to particiate, "because it's against the rules"?

Regards,

ray

Well, I guess everybody's had their say and there are 2 camps that differ.

May I conclude by making a plea to ALL players that if you insist on strict application of the letter of the law in every instance in what is supposed to be a FRIENDLY game then please bear in mind you are going to antagonise a lot of beginners and social players.

Much better to learn to play in the SPIRIT of the game and welcome and encourage others, don't put them off playing!

Regards,

Ray

Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

If there are beginners playing, then they should be taught properly to start with. And if rules are pointed out in the right way, no-one should feel antagonised. There are times when a rule that I was previously unaware of is pointed out to me and I take it in the spirit in which it is meant - that is, to be helpful.

Regards

Barbara

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Well, I guess everybody's had their say and there are 2 camps that differ.

May I conclude by making a plea to ALL players that if you insist on strict application of the letter of the law in every instance in what is supposed to be a FRIENDLY game then please bear in mind you are going to antagonise a lot of beginners and social players.

Much better to learn to play in the SPIRIT of the game and welcome and encourage others, don't put them off playing!

Regards,

Ray

Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara

Dear Jean-Philippe,

Thank you so much for a really interesting and informative posting that so clearly gives an expert explanation of the difference between ‘competition’ and ‘social’ games.

Your examples are spot on for showing how important the ‘etiquette’ of social games is.

Although based in the UK, I have played a fair bit in France and just love playing in Provence. The passion, enthusiasm and love of the game just have to be experienced to be believed. Playing in La Marseillaise and Millau are just wonderful experiences of how good – and how much fun – petanque can be.

Vive les boules, vive la petanque!

Ray

Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara




Dear Barbara

What a pleasure to share your enthusiasm for Petanque-Sport with my passion for Petanque.
The two Petanque exist, coexist and are played by the same players. You are one of those player now, and i explain:
I put to you two situations to analyse, guesssing that you did not face those situations before.
You did not call for the written Rules and your answer express sensibility, respect, nuance and finess. You "guessed" rightly by naming those emotions "Spirit of the Game".

Welcom to the large family of Petanque.

Kind regards

Jean-Philippe

Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara




Dear Barbara

What a pleasure to share your enthusiasm for Petanque-Sport with my passion for Petanque.
The two Petanque exist, coexist and are played by the same players. You are one of those player now, and i explain:
I put to you two situations to analyse, guesssing that you did not face those situations before.
You did not call for the written Rules and your answer express sensibility, respect, nuance and finess. You "guessed" rightly by naming those emotions "Spirit of the Game".

Welcom to the large family of Petanque.

Kind regards

Jean-Philippe

Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara




Dear Barbara

What a pleasure to share your enthusiasm for Petanque-Sport with my passion for Petanque.
The two Petanque exist, coexist and are played by the same players. You are one of those player now, and i explain:
I put to you two situations to analyse, guesssing that you did not face those situations before.
You did not call for the written Rules and your answer express sensibility, respect, nuance and finess. You "guessed" rightly by naming those emotions "Spirit of the Game".

Welcom to the large family of Petanque.

Kind regards

Jean-Philippe


Dear Jean-Philippe,

Thank you for your kindness. I hope to meet you some time and have a game of petanque with you.

Regards

Barbara

Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara




Dear Barbara

What a pleasure to share your enthusiasm for Petanque-Sport with my passion for Petanque.

The two Petanque exist, coexist and are played by the same players. You are one of those player now, and i explain:
I put to you two situations to analyse, guesssing that you did not face those situations before.
You did not call for the written Rules and your answer express sensibility, respect, nuance and finess. You "guessed" rightly by naming those emotions "Spirit of the Game".

Welcom to the large family of Petanque.

Kind regards
Jean-Philippe

Sorry Barbara, i did not answer your question about someone changing the placement of the circle or coch.
Now remember we chat about Petanque and not about Petanque-Sport;

That player is;
1- a new player?
2- he/she is cheating? a cheat usually hide their bad doing!
3- ignorance? the mother of all probleme?

Thus, you will teach (polity and with humor) the civilities of Petanque.
That player he/she is rude to do a thing out of the ordinary, without asking you.

Just say "I do not like it; you did not ask me if I agree, put it back at the original place" and laugh like if it was a gouud joke.
You just teach a player of boule to be a Petanqueur.
Never use the word RULES in Petanque to justify a complaint, but use civilities:
Can we play that way?
Do you like ........? etc, and smile please smile it is the best present we could offer and the rude people will change, just perhaps because they will start to like you. You are not rude to them.

At club level you do not need to play with or against a rude player. The rude player will change by learning or change his/her bowls game.
Do you know that in Europe millions of peoples play Petanque and do not know the written rules? They do not knows that book exist.
In France they are more interested by "La joie de vivre" than the Rules.
I wish you could left all the rules behind you when you step in your club on Sunday. You will find lots of Rules to follow on the other days of the week.
I hope my broken English do not offend you to much.

Kind regards
Jean-Philippe

Jean-Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe g wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Jean_Philippe Guglielmi wrote:
------------------------------------



Barbara Randall wrote:
------------------------------------



Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

Dear Andy,

I think there are various aspects here that probably every player and every club should address.

It would appear (?) that we do basically agree that in 'social' games, it's up to the players to agree on how they're going to play. For example, I would say it makes perfect sense in a social game to simply move the jack to an acceptable distance. Of course, in a competition it would be rethrown.

If you play in France, you'll appreciate that petanque very much has it's own culture. French players generally play much more "in the spirit of the game" rather than insisting on sticking rigidly to the letter of the law all the time, especially in social games.

Regarding feet inside the circle. In France, it's pretty much the norm to have a foot, sometimes two, crossing the circle, even in competititons. It actually makes no difference to the game, everybody does it and nobody complains. Of course, if somebody was completely outside the circle, players would object (but surely nobody would ever do such a thing?)

So, personally I have no problem with a foot crossing the circle. Blatant cheating is, of course, another matter...

Regarding 'social' players complaining about a boule being shot: this is not uncommon and illustrates that players have learnt very little about the game. Usually those who just play a pointing game, have little if any awareness of different techniques let along tactics. My advice: send them to France to learn how the game is *meant* to be played :-)

If you think it's ok in a friendly for 1 team to wait and see if the first team plays a good first boule before challenging the jack, sorry but I VERY STRONGLY disagree. I think it's deplorable and unsporting and has no place in a 'friendly' - it's typical case of somebody thinking they understand the rules but having no feeling or concept whatsoever about how to behave with other players.

Regards,

Ray



Dear Ray

As I said previously, you and I are never going to agree about the rules. The only "Spirit of the game" I would agree with would be to let a 5th player into a game and that's just because I don't like to see anyone left out. But the actual rules of play should be adhered to. As both Andy and I have said, in other sports, you can have friendly games but players still stick to the rules.

If we want our sport to be taken seriously, then we ourselves have to take it seriously.

Certainly, when we're teaching new players, we should teach them the rules and not our version of the rules.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara, dear Ray, dear Andy,
You are right except for the justification to compare Petanque with "other sports", because Petanque is different.
You could chose to play Petanque or Petanque-Sport. If you chose to play Petanque, you cannot impose the written rules of the Petanque-Sport and vice versa.
Petanque:
Petanque is played with UNIQUE unwritten rules (etiquette). The UNIQUE "spirit of the Game" is the purpose of the game of Petanque, which was created by friends as a UNIQUE friendly sport, reducing the physical advantage of one player in the but to ACCOMMODATE (conciliate) for the handicap of the other (playing seated on a chair).
Petanque is a UNIQUE non discriminating sport. A petanqueur is happy to play against happy friends and winning is a bonus with perhaps a trophy or a glass of pastis as prize. Laughing, good humor and communication do not impair the skill.
Petanque-Sport (in France):
The Petanque-Sport player, is motivated by winning his/her opponents because the reward is to be a champion, but whatever the final result, a lot of monney change hands in the interval.
That is, PETANQUE-SPORT in France is MONEY (indemnity). You gamble that you will get your opponents' game fee(+15% minimum or 25% maximum paid by the club).
Example: In category promotion, after each game the winners goes to the table and collect the Indemnity. In category Elite, the payment of Indemnity is from the first game after the Sortie-de-Poule; a good jackpot in + for the winner/s. The majority of the Petanque-Sport players are attracted by the competitive aspect of the game but infortunatly other are just trophies hunter. Naturally Petanque-Sport needs written strict set of rules to controle those players.
Warning:
Be aware of the french expats which takes example from the French Federation of Petanque to advise on the creation of other foreign Federation. IT WILL NOT WORKS OUTSIDE FRANCE because the FRENCH FEDERATION AND SPECIALLY THE FEDERATION INTERNATIONAL OF PETANQUE(fipjp) which role is to organize mainly the World Championship with the strict application of the rules which are not suitable for SOCIAL PLAYERS. Without new social players your clubs will not develop.
The French Federation with its 480.000 licenced (about 3% of the players in France) will not exist without the pool of the other 97% of social players.
Take example of the Swedish Federation. Since they decided on their own judgement and stoped to copyg the French way (as advised by the French Expats), they membership escaladed. Can you imagine the French Federation organising the National Championship with more than 2500 participants? The Swedish done it in 2002 at Gotborg and they could not have done it if they followed the rules & structure of the French Fed.
Yes Barbara in Rome do.....but please, for the future of your game, choose the right example.
Yes Andy, you must follows stricly the Rules, but which rules? The one which is played by the International players (40 teams?)or the one which will make the majority of your adherents happy?
Yes Ray, it is difficult to pass the message until the player discover the "spitit of the Game" as played by millions of peoples in France.
Regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

All I can say in answer to you is that in this country, the strongest players are in the strongest clubs. And in the strongest clubs, the rules of Petanque are strictly adhered to, whether it's social or competition play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara

You acheived to have the strongest players in your contry because they adhere stricly to the rules of Petanque.
The rules of Petanque you cited, are the rules of the Federation International de Petanque, adopted in its totality by your Federation National?
If so, what is the answer, at your club, to the following situations in a low level competition (organized game with a bottle of wine and small trophy for the winners):

Q-1- The team winning the toss is ready to throw the cochonnet, when one ederly player from the other team ask if the cochonnet could be changed by another one with a colour more visible!

A- The team with the toss play by the Rules and do not change the cochonnet.

B- The "Spirit of the game" (etiquette) is applied and the cochonnet is changed.

C- The ederly player is judged to old to play and should not play.


Q-2- A team play the first boule which end perfectly 5cm in front of the cochonnet. The opposing team claim that the boule is invalid because it is played from an illegal cercle. In effect, the cercle is 25mm (1 inch)larger than the legal size.

A- The "Spirit of the game" is applied and the opponents says nothing about the cercle.

B- The rules are strictly applied and the cochonnet and the boule must be replay from a legal cercle.

What will be the decisionsat your club?

Regards

Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe

I belong to 2 clubs, neither of which can be described as a strong club so I cannot answer your questions in that context. I would guess that in the instances you specify, the spirit of the game would be observed, even though in one of my clubs, we have an elderly member whose vision has deterorated, but who would never dream of asking for the coche to be changed. He is an extremely good player, even managing to shoot at 10 metres, and who shows up many younger players with his ability to play petanque. In your second instance, it would depend on who was playing, because many players don't even know what the dimensions of the circle should be. In any case, they would be perfectly entitled to challenge the size of the circle. But don't you think what you have cited are minor points? Someone drawing a further circle because they didn't like the length of the coche from the first circle they drew could have far more serious consequences, particularly if they were aware that their opponents couldn't play to shorter or longer distances as the case may be. It could be construed as a way of cheating and surely that isn't allowed anywhere in the world?

Regards

Barbara




Dear Barbara

What a pleasure to share your enthusiasm for Petanque-Sport with my passion for Petanque.

The two Petanque exist, coexist and are played by the same players. You are one of those player now, and i explain:
I put to you two situations to analyse, guesssing that you did not face those situations before.
You did not call for the written Rules and your answer express sensibility, respect, nuance and finess. You "guessed" rightly by naming those emotions "Spirit of the Game".

Welcom to the large family of Petanque.

Kind regards
Jean-Philippe

Sorry Barbara, i did not answer your question about someone changing the placement of the circle or coch.
Now remember we chat about Petanque and not about Petanque-Sport;

That player is;
1- a new player?
2- he/she is cheating? a cheat usually hide their bad doing!
3- ignorance? the mother of all probleme?

Thus, you will teach (polity and with humor) the civilities of Petanque.
That player he/she is rude to do a thing out of the ordinary, without asking you.

Just say "I do not like it; you did not ask me if I agree, put it back at the original place" and laugh like if it was a gouud joke.
You just teach a player of boule to be a Petanqueur.
Never use the word RULES in Petanque to justify a complaint, but use civilities:
Can we play that way?
Do you like ........? etc, and smile please smile it is the best present we could offer and the rude people will change, just perhaps because they will start to like you. You are not rude to them.

At club level you do not need to play with or against a rude player. The rude player will change by learning or change his/her bowls game.
Do you know that in Europe millions of peoples play Petanque and do not know the written rules? They do not knows that book exist.
In France they are more interested by "La joie de vivre" than the Rules.
I wish you could left all the rules behind you when you step in your club on Sunday. You will find lots of Rules to follow on the other days of the week.
I hope my broken English do not offend you to much.

Kind regards
Jean-Philippe


Dear Jean-Philippe

You haven't offended me at all. It's good to have discussions like these.

Regards

Barbara

HI everyone and thanks for your input. Did you notice that were only 5 people inputting to this extended discussion?

Is there anyone else out there that has an opinion?

Perhaps I confused people with the two Petanques;
The Petanque (amateur) and the Petanque-Sport.

In France, you join a club and start to play sociable games as a club member.
The club ensure that every players present on Sunday could play.
Every one is teamed by draw (names pulled out of the hat).

The best way to organise the games is the formats melee (all mixed by draw) and Super-melee when one partner is changed after each game.
It is fun and as prizes we have baskets with fromage, saucisson, pate, pain, bonbons, etc.

We play outside our club too.
We choose our team and partner/s and register in any challenge, concours and competitions we wish to play.
The competitions are called Competitions Sauvages. These competitions are normally organised by a sponsor and with as prizes, the goods the sponsor sell: TV, washing machine, petrol voucher, jambon de parm etc.. however, every time, in the prizes is a bottle of Pernod (for Ladies) and/or Ricard.
Normally all prizes includes Pernod or Ricard (pastis, the spirit of the French?)

Now, you want to have a try in the Legal (as opposed to Sauvage) competitions organised by the Federation Nationale.

The door is open to the Sauvage Players for a try in the Legal, by taking a day licence, on the spot. You could be a Federal Player for one day.
What a promotion, from Social to Sauvage and now a Legal Fede player and no question asked.
You like the high competitive game under the Fede and you decide to take a yearly Card at the Fede. You are now Licencie a la Federation Francaise de Petanque et de Jeu Provencal (ffpjp).

Now it is time for Rules and questions.
By example you need a Doctor Certificate before registering in competition. Your card must be stamped by a Doctor and you cannot play without your card. On the card is your category with your handicap, thus no card no play.
Your boule are passed on the rail, are weighed, and calibrated, you are now on the first step (promotion) of those elitist Petanque-Sport Players.

Money could be coming your way and you need Rules.
But more Rules that any other Boules Game, because Petanque is played in open ground (with interferences by moving vehicle, children, animals, beach balloon, family, fan, enemies etc), and be careful to the girl friends of your opponents. They manages to be every time in your vision and the way they dresses (qu'elle chaleur), you need to be a master in concentration.

Why open ground?
Ex: The Marseillaise is played in the Park Borrelli at Marseilles with 26 kilometres of pistes, embossed by more than 11.000.00 players.
Only the “carre d’honneur” for/from the 1/4 final is marked (mainly for the dead boule ligne) with white sand. Marking with string is a no no. String on the ground can make the players to trip on it (and they are from all ages).

If you wish I could tell you how to comeback as a Petanque player and enjoy your retour to the social games.

Kind regards
Jean-Philippe

Dear Jean-Philippe,

I don't think you've confused anybody. On the contrary, I think you've given a really clear and interesting account of the differences between 'social' and 'competition' petanque, perfectly illustrated with examples showing how sporting behaviour and etiquette take presidence in social games.

I for one am delighted to have another French player contributing to an English language petanque forum - please keep posting!

Regards,

Ray

Thanks, Jean-Phillippe, for a lucid & delightful explication de texte de Petanque.
regards, ellinor

Apart from a few family games and a few solo practice sessions in the garden, the only time I play petanque is during my annual holiday at La Tranche sur mer in the vandee. These games are played by a loose gathering of people on any open ground. I've never seen a full circle never mind measured one, all i've ever seen is a casualy drawen semi circle. These are relaxed but hard faught games and absolute fun. I did'nt actualy know that there where so many rules. Still, roll on next summer. Best regards, mike.

Dear Mike,

If you enjoy playing, why not visit a local club and play there?

Regards,

Ray

Hi Ray,
I think that visiting a club is going to be my next move. Does anybody know of any clubs in ghe N.E. of England.

Hi Mike

Try going into www.englishpetanque.org.uk/clubdb.asp

Select Club Database. Then select Northern Region from drop down list - it lists clubs and contact names and phone numbers.

If you can't find what you want there, send an e-mail to alan@northernpetanque.co.uk
(Alan Swift).

Regards

Barbara

I have played petanque on holiday abroad and really enjoyed it but now we are back in Kings Lynn the only game I know of is played at Knights Hill Hotel in K/L
but this happens when I am at work.
Can anyone help me?
01553670781
peterculham@fsmail.net

Hi Pete

Try going into www.englishpetanque.org.uk/clubdb.asp

Select Club Database. Then select Anglia Region (I think that's your nearest) from drop down list - it lists clubs and contact names and phone numbers.

If you can't find what you want there, send an e-mail to
kevin@moss84.freeserve.co.uk

Barbara