At the International Congress in Maspalomas there was a proposal that there
should be allowed to substitute one player during the game in the WCh.

This proposal had been sent to the national associations for voting by
letter, but the Norwegian Association had demanded that this question should
be raised during the congress.

At the congress, the vote ended 17-17, in spite of a majority voting YES by
letter.

I think this situation raises two questions :

1. May the FIPJP have rules for the WCh that break the rules of the game ?

2. May the FIPJP send out proposals for presenting only one view on the
matter ?

For question 1 : My opinion is that I don't think this could happen in any
other sports federation than in ours.

What if, in football, the FIFA said : In the WCh in France there will be no
offside rule, and all 11 players may be substituted during one game ?
They of cause did not do that, because the rules of the game tells there IS
an offside rule.

The FIPJP already break their own rules. ß34 says: Substitution of a player
may take place until the tournament starts. That is, the 4th player which
most teams bring to the WCh is not
allowed to enter the terrain after the teams has started to play the first
match.

What about that, Mr. Bernard & his friends in the Executive Committee !?

For question 2 : By using this way of dealing with proposals, the FIPJP &
the Executive Committe (which mainly is the FFPJP, the French Federation)
may propose anything they want and
get the majority of votes, because too many president's of national
associations want to kiss some asses just to get a place in the Executive
Committee themselves (which they cannot get if
the board of the FIPJP (FFPJP) don't like them).

But at the Congress, they are exposed to arguments against the will of the
FIPJP (FFPJP) and may change their mind, which of cause the FIPJP (FFPJP)
dont like.

By the way, I would like to add one more example of how the FIPJP is working
:

For many years there has been a proposal that the participating countries at
the Word Championships should pay the bill for accomodation and meals. This
proposal came up when the
FIPJP were beginning to have a hard time getting organizers for the events.
This would of cause mean that several nations could not afford to
participate, but there was a soloution : The
FIPJP should give economical aid to the poorest associations to help them
participate.

The FIPJP didn't like the idea, but came up with a brilliant soloution: They
linked the proposal with a proposal that the largest associattions (read
FFPJP) should have more votes at the
congress. This the other associations could not eat, and the FIPJP had their
way. Very democratic, won't you say?

So, if you make a proposal for the Congress (must be written and sent to the
FIPJP in advance, so it would be printed in the documents for the Congress),
don't be suprised if a) the
proposal is not in the documents or b) is replaced with another proposal by
the FFPJP or (usually by the Executive Committee which also is the FFPJP)
which not represents your ideas at
all.

And, when I say you, I don't mean YOU, but your national association.

Any comments, anyone ?

I know it is permitted to have your name or initials engraved on your boules. Must the manufacturer do this on competition boules, or can one have it done at a later date? It is unclear from the punctuation in the rules whether the applied during manufacture refers to logos and insignia, names and initials, or both.

When will the old rules be available in English?

Jim.

can 3 people play ?

Last week during a local competition it occurred that the official was called to define the rules of Petanque on a problem. First, the local official, like all local petanque players who accept to do the work and study to advance their knowledge as an officials,was playing his own game on a nearby court.
As his team waited for him to return,the discussion lasted for 15-20 minutes because each captain had his opinion of the rule; and the new official wanted to be just with both captains.
The point being made here is in the direction of tactics; in that when we request the decision of an officials; we automaticly accept his decision. Even if he is a local or beginning official and has made a mistake; the decision stand immediatly and should be accepted by both captains without discussions. After the match a discussion or protest can help all to better understand the rules but during the match it should be simply. Thank you.
A mistake in measurement or in explaning a rule is human especially with a new official; however each incident is a learning experience and with time this person will be come a good official if given a change.
What happen, that required such a discussion. even after ward at the tables captains were discussion the decision.
It was the sort of decision that is the most complex decision. That of of a Null Boule . The opponent captain had moved the jack in measurement. (is it important that it moved toward his ball or away from his ball? No.) So the decision was simple. The point is there! because your ball is dead . The official doesn't even have to measure to know which ball is closest. He did.... because the team captain wanted to know. He also attempted to explain how the dead or null ball would be returned to play when the error making captain played his next ball.
But all this was the officials effort to be honest and helpful. He could have given his decision and returned to the game which he was playing.
Point being made is when you asked for the decision of the official or a measurement of a fellow player; you automatically express your intension of accepting his measure or decision.
Another incident which happen a few years ago. The jack was thrown and the two captains were in discussion wheather it was good or not. In the mean time a pointer, probably discouraged with the childish attitude of the captains; went and got the official to measure the distance. The score was 11-12 and the team requesting the measurement was ahead (12) The official, a national official came and measured and because the distance was about 5 inches good; he gave a penity of 2 points against the pointer who asked the measure. They lost the game and the captain asked why the pointer went and got the official. He replied. I am sick of the captains argueing over small details or rules.

Vegar Ness wrote:

At the International Congress in Maspalomas there was a proposal that there
should be allowed to substitute one player during the game in the WCh.

This proposal had been sent to the national associations for voting by
letter, but the Norwegian Association had demanded that this question should
be raised during the congress.

At the congress, the vote ended 17-17, in spite of a majority voting YES by
letter.

I think this situation raises two questions :

1. May the FIPJP have rules for the WCh that break the rules of the game ?

2. May the FIPJP send out proposals for presenting only one view on the
matter ?

For question 1 : My opinion is that I don't think this could happen in any
other sports federation than in ours.

What if, in football, the FIFA said : In the WCh in France there will be no
offside rule, and all 11 players may be substituted during one game ?
They of cause did not do that, because the rules of the game tells there IS
an offside rule.

The FIPJP already break their own rules. ß34 says: Substitution of a player
may take place until the tournament starts. That is, the 4th player which
most teams bring to the WCh is not
allowed to enter the terrain after the teams has started to play the first
match.

What about that, Mr. Bernard & his friends in the Executive Committee !?

For question 2 : By using this way of dealing with proposals, the FIPJP &
the Executive Committe (which mainly is the FFPJP, the French Federation)
may propose anything they want and
get the majority of votes, because too many president's of national
associations want to kiss some asses just to get a place in the Executive
Committee themselves (which they cannot get if
the board of the FIPJP (FFPJP) don't like them).

But at the Congress, they are exposed to arguments against the will of the
FIPJP (FFPJP) and may change their mind, which of cause the FIPJP (FFPJP)
dont like.

By the way, I would like to add one more example of how the FIPJP is working
:

For many years there has been a proposal that the participating countries at
the Word Championships should pay the bill for accomodation and meals. This
proposal came up when the
FIPJP were beginning to have a hard time getting organizers for the events.
This would of cause mean that several nations could not afford to
participate, but there was a soloution : The
FIPJP should give economical aid to the poorest associations to help them
participate.

The FIPJP didn't like the idea, but came up with a brilliant soloution: They
linked the proposal with a proposal that the largest associattions (read
FFPJP) should have more votes at the
congress. This the other associations could not eat, and the FIPJP had their
way. Very democratic, won't you say?

So, if you make a proposal for the Congress (must be written and sent to the
FIPJP in advance, so it would be printed in the documents for the Congress),
don't be suprised if a) the
proposal is not in the documents or b) is replaced with another proposal by
the FFPJP or (usually by the Executive Committee which also is the FFPJP)
which not represents your ideas at
all.

And, when I say you, I don't mean YOU, but your national association.

Any comments, anyone ?

“Soft” boules can be stamped with the player’s initials or name after manufacture, although for a deeper, more profound impression, the factory can stamp them before hardening.

If you are thinking of doing this yourself, I’m sure it’s a good idea to practise on old boules or leisure boules first, to get the hang of doing it neatly on a hardened, curved surface. I suspect as well that it’s NOT a good idea to put the boules in a vice when doing this – you need some sort of holder that isn’t going to deform the boule.

I don’t think you can stamp “hard” boules after manufacture. I know that “Integrale” doesn’t.

I have visited a boules retailer in Paris who had his own engraving machine and would engrave boules, so this is also possible, although I think this is only a light, surface marking that probably won’t last that long.

One thing I will ask “Integrale” is whether or not there is any need to rebalance boules after stamping.

I’ve only ever seem logos, etc, on leisure and promotional sets. I don’t think it’s allowed for competition boules. I do have a nice “paper-weight” boule with a logo.

Regards,

Ray Ager

Hi Jim

Frank Pippin, our USA editor has been buisy translating the rules the last couple of weeks, and has a draft ready.

When it is checked for accuracy it will be published here on petanque.org. It seems that translating really old french texts are not as easy as it seems...

Cheers,
mr.bordsenius of petanque.org

Jim Fowler wrote:
When will the old rules be available in English?

Jim.

Of course you can. There are a lot of variants. Some of them are:
1. faire les mains One player has 6 boules and plays doublette against the 2 others. This is a great training to become an all-round player.
2. A slightly complicated version of the single game. Each player is playing against the 2 others. The player with the boule farthest from the jack has to play. At the end of the turn, each player scores against each of the 2 other, as many points as he/she has boules closer to the jack as each of his/hers opponent. There are thus 3 matches to take care about.
3. One player is a shooter, and the other 2 are playing tete a tete . Alternatively, the shooter shoots 2 boules for one player and one boule for the other. A variant is that the one who loss the previous turn gets 2 shooting boules. It is also possible for the shooter to play with 4 boules (2 would not be very funny, even if possible).
4. A crazy variant of the previous is that the third player (the shoooter) does not stand in the same circle as the 2 others.



faq wrote:
------------------------------------

can 3 people play ?

I think a good way to play when you are 3 players is:

2 of the players play the first round. The winner maybee get 2 points. He will play the next round too against the play who was out and the looser is out. The winner will continue and always play against the person who is out in the next round. You continue like this till one of the players get 13 points. In this way you keep the game as normal you can!!!


faq wrote:
------------------------------------

can 3 people play ?

John J. Tupper wrote:
------------------------------------
SNIP...It was the sort of decision that is the most complex decision. That of of a Null Boule . The opponent captain had moved the jack in measurement. (is it important that it moved toward his ball or away from his ball? No.) So the decision was simple. The point is there! because your ball is dead . The official doesn't even have to measure to know which ball is closest. SNIP...

Please explain the Null Boule in the above context.

TIA,
Guy

wrote:

Vegar Ness wrote:

At the International Congress in Maspalomas there was a proposal that there
should be allowed to substitute one player during the game in the WCh.

This proposal had been sent to the national associations for voting by
letter, but the Norwegian Association had demanded that this question should
be raised during the congress.

At the congress, the vote ended 17-17, in spite of a majority voting YES by
letter.

I think this situation raises two questions :

1. May the FIPJP have rules for the WCh that break the rules of the game ?

2. May the FIPJP send out proposals for presenting only one view on the
matter ?

For question 1 : My opinion is that I don't think this could happen in any
other sports federation than in ours.

What if, in football, the FIFA said : In the WCh in France there will be no
offside rule, and all 11 players may be substituted during one game ?
They of cause did not do that, because the rules of the game tells there IS
an offside rule.

The FIPJP already break their own rules. ß34 says: Substitution of a player
may take place until the tournament starts. That is, the 4th player which
most teams bring to the WCh is not
allowed to enter the terrain after the teams has started to play the first
match.

What about that, Mr. Bernard & his friends in the Executive Committee !?

For question 2 : By using this way of dealing with proposals, the FIPJP &
the Executive Committe (which mainly is the FFPJP, the French Federation)
may propose anything they want and
get the majority of votes, because too many president's of national
associations want to kiss some asses just to get a place in the Executive
Committee themselves (which they cannot get if
the board of the FIPJP (FFPJP) don't like them).

But at the Congress, they are exposed to arguments against the will of the
FIPJP (FFPJP) and may change their mind, which of cause the FIPJP (FFPJP)
dont like.

By the way, I would like to add one more example of how the FIPJP is working
:

For many years there has been a proposal that the participating countries at
the Word Championships should pay the bill for accomodation and meals. This
proposal came up when the
FIPJP were beginning to have a hard time getting organizers for the events.
This would of cause mean that several nations could not afford to
participate, but there was a soloution : The
FIPJP should give economical aid to the poorest associations to help them
participate.

The FIPJP didn't like the idea, but came up with a brilliant soloution: They
linked the proposal with a proposal that the largest associattions (read
FFPJP) should have more votes at the
congress. This the other associations could not eat, and the FIPJP had their
way. Very democratic, won't you say?

So, if you make a proposal for the Congress (must be written and sent to the
FIPJP in advance, so it would be printed in the documents for the Congress),
don't be suprised if a) the
proposal is not in the documents or b) is replaced with another proposal by
the FFPJP or (usually by the Executive Committee which also is the FFPJP)
which not represents your ideas at
all.

And, when I say you, I don't mean YOU, but your national association.

Any comments, anyone ?

It's easily *possible* to engrave even the hardest boules after manufacture. All you need is someone with a diamond-tipped graver. What I was asking is whether it is permissible (name or initials) under the rules to have it done yourself. I've seen slightly different renditions of the rules. Some make it appear that the manufacturer must do the engraving, others seem to indicate that names and initials may be freely done anytime.

Bill

Ray Ager wrote:
------------------------------------

“Soft” boules can be stamped with the player’s initials or name after manufacture, although for a deeper, more profound impression, the factory can stamp them before hardening.

If you are thinking of doing this yourself, I’m sure it’s a good idea to practise on old boules or leisure boules first, to get the hang of doing it neatly on a hardened, curved surface. I suspect as well that it’s NOT a good idea to put the boules in a vice when doing this – you need some sort of holder that isn’t going to deform the boule.

I don’t think you can stamp “hard” boules after manufacture. I know that “Integrale” doesn’t.

I have visited a boules retailer in Paris who had his own engraving machine and would engrave boules, so this is also possible, although I think this is only a light, surface marking that probably won’t last that long.

One thing I will ask “Integrale” is whether or not there is any need to rebalance boules after stamping.

I’ve only ever seem logos, etc, on leisure and promotional sets. I don’t think it’s allowed for competition boules. I do have a nice “paper-weight” boule with a logo.

Regards,

Ray Ager

Xavier makes some useful suggestions - thanks for that.

I'd just like to make the point for the benefit more of beginners, which sometimes doesn't always seem to be appreciated: remember that petanque is a game for 2 opposing teams. If you play with 3 players, 1 against 1 agains 1, you destroy the basic structure and tactics of the game.

The basic problem is that if you shoot, unless you get a carreau, your shot is more likely to benefit the 3rd player, rather than reward the shooter.

Don't know the real answer to the question, but I would say you are allowed to do that yourself. I mean, how could the competition organizers identify which engraving is done by factory and which isn't?

If the balance of the ball changes (engraving is big and deep enough) too much, then the balls are illegal. But this affects the engraving done by manufacturer also.

-Antti