If you play by the rules all the time there is no problem. We had a player who like to groom the terrain as he walked up to take a look. One day someone said shall I get my rake and shovel for you? Never happened again.

You've hit the nail on the head, Bruce! Thank you.

What concerns me about such blanket statements is that there is no obvious distinction between “competition” games and “social”, “casual”, “practise” or “friendly” games.

In the former – sometimes called “Sport Petanque” – players are, of course, expected to know the rules and play to them. With “social” games, it’s important that a more common-sense, relaxed view is taken.

This is really an “old-chestnut” that’s quite comprehensively been covered in past forums, with various examples of how a strict, over-zealous application of competition rules can be quite inappropriate, even unsporting, in social games.

Just to give one example: supposing you’re playing with elderly players, who only play short 6-8m games because that’s all they’re capable of. Would you insist on playing a 10m jack, or playing a jack that’s, say, moved to 15 or 20m, “because it’s in the rules”?

Please keep the distinction in mind and make sure that you encourage – not upset and put off – “social” players. With the right approach, they may well become “competition” players as well.

Regards,

Ray

Ray,

You and I have had this same discussion many many times and we are never going to agree. It's getting boring. I'm going to state my position one more time and then after that will remain silent on the subject.

All I will say is that I always bear in mind other players' attitudes. If I'm in a game with "social" players, I don't try to ram my views down their throats. Rather, I pander to them and just bite my tongue. I don't like pandering because if I get into bad habits, I may forget when playing in a competition and get pulled up by an umpire.

As for elderly players, in Croydon we have an 87 year old who still likes to shoot at 10 metres! The reason he's able to is because he was taught properly from the word "Go" and although considering himself a "social" player, does play to the rules and enjoys doing so.

To the best of my knowledge, I have never put anyone off playing. What I do do is to show new players the correct way to play, such as not doing a "kick start" when throwing.

That is all I am going to say on the subject.

Merry Christmas!

Barbara

Dear Barbara,

I fear you’ve “got hold of the wrong end of the stick” in taking any comments personally.

Firstly, if you look at the thread for this subject, you’ll see that I replied to the original post and not to yours.

Secondly, and more importantly, this is a public forum and my comments were intended for “all players in general”, not to any particular individual. Normally, I wouldn’t use this forum for comments intended for an individual.

I hope this is clear.

Regards,

Ray

Dear Ray

I accept that your comments were meant generally but you must admit that we have had this disagreement many times before and it has never been (and in my opinion cannot be) resolved. That is why I won't be taking part in such discussions again. You have your views and I have mine and we should agree to disagree.

Regards

Barbara

I stand by always playing by the rules. In a friendly we sometimes make an agreement to modify them. Let's play in the shade as it's hot out or not play into the sun. We agree to these modifications. What I'm talking about is the person who constantly breaks they rules, i.e. moves the buchon from where it was to a different location when they win the point. i always ask if I should call them a cab so they can always play were they want, not where the last point was scored. It's annoying and unfair to the rest of the players. Bruce

Very easy to agree or to disagree , but on the pistes the decisions can make or break the day.

I wonder if together we can stop the malaise and put some lights on the problems of rules-no-rules as experimented in the UK, America and Australia.

I am sure, it is not a cultural difference, but alternatively my soupcon lay toward France which hide behind the however, France grab the world title 90% in the last 49 years.

Barbara please do not participate in this post if you do not like it, but we are ego to find a solution and we need a determinate and faire personality like yours in that debate. Even if the questions and the responses are silly, we need all of them to help resolve the disagreement.


You, play with Bill, the 87-year-old man whom shoots the boules well at 10 m.

Problem with the team You-Bill:
Suddenly Bill could not play pass the distance of 9m, because that morning Bill got a little bout of gout in his elbow.

Bill discovered petanque at 85 (2 years ago) and since that time, he cannot wait to play in is new fantastic sport which regenerated is body and mind. At 87, how many more Sundays how many more pleasure?

Today Bill feel weak, lost, another full week before he could play again. Slowly and childishly Bill asks;
.

Hum!
What are the solutions:
1- Bill is out, not fit to play, but unfortunately not other players are free to replace Bill.

2- You play without Bill with your three boules only, watched by the very sorry and sad Bill.

3- You play with Bill (with his handicap), without any change of winning.

4- You involve your opponents to waive the advantage they have now on you, by explaining that we will not have the chance to reach 87, but if we have that chance it must feel marvelous to be accepted at 87 as equal and to still play in sport (with a slight adjustment of 1m)

Now for Ray and Fleurette team.
Ray, Fleurette is the 65 years old woman with a permanent lovely smile on her face.

Problem with Florette.
Fleurette discretely went to the little room, without asking her/your opponents the right to do so.
Do you opponents have the right to ask that Fleurette be disqualified?
(the rules allow it).

How others petanqueurs think their club will resolve the dilemma?
How an umpire will rule on it?
How you feel personally?

Regards
Jean-Philippe

Well said, Bruce!

Some of my posting are missing.
Here they are:
"alternatively my soupcon lay toward France which hide behind the however, France grab the world title 90% in the last 49 years."
And
"Today Bill feel weak, lost, another full week before he could play again. Slowly and childishly Bill asks;
.

Thank you
jpg

Jean-Philippe,

I don't mind at all joining in a discussion about anything. What I don't see the point in is having the same disagreement with the same person time and time again. If 2 people just can't agree, they should agree to disagree.

As for the examples you quoted, obviously common sense would have to prevail. "Bill" (that's just a name you chose) would have the sense not to play if he was unfit to that extent; and I would have the sense and kindness not to try and force him to play. I would either not play myself or would try to find another partner for that day.

I'm not talking about the rules in that sense. I'm talking about players blatantly going against the rules, as exampled by Bruce Frigard. Personally I don't like going against the rules, even in "social" games. If I get into bad habits, I could carry them on unwittingly in important competitions and get penalised by an umpire.

However, when playing in "social" games, I have regard for my fellow players and just bite my tongue when they go against the rules. At Croydon PC, when the club started, no-one would have gone against the rules, because everyone was taught properly from the word "Go" and everyone was expected to play properly. That does not apply so much now and it is a fact that very new members are not taught the rules. A not so new member recently asked me why I marked the coche and boules when someone was going to shoot, the coche and boules then being near the boundary. In earlier days at Croydon, all members would have known the answer to that very soon after starting playing.

Regards

Barbara

The circle (cercle) is the essence of petanque.

Ok, the rules say it must be between 35 & 59 cm in circumference, but that is just to stop the mocker to exaggerate, etc...

Again, everyone learns the rules but not the reasons why the rules are in place for.
I find that the new umpire do not know much what is important in the rule.
Some umpires get gaga if the cercle is not completely close.To be called a cercle, it must be close (that important is not?).

The reason why the cercle must be traced around the bouchon (cochonnet, is to mark the starting point of the new end.

Because petanque is played on open ground, the bouchon is part of the finesse of the game.

It MUST BE PLAYED WHERE IT LANDED AT THE PREVIOUS END.
Throwing the bouchon is the essence of the game.
Before you throw the bouchon, inspect the ground around you (360 degree) and choose the landing spot, not only for that end, but also for the next one, since each throw will bring you closer to the ground surface where you team will perform the best (like positioning the white boule in billiard or snooker).

Please, do not play up and down on those silly corridors market by strings; Ask our coach, you will never learn to play petanque properly, since you play on the same ground for the complete duration of a game, plus it is boring. Try open ground and enjoy the difference.
Also the strings can make players and spectators to trip, with as consequence an increase of club's insurance costs.
The club or federation will need to increase their fees just to pay the insurance increase, year after year. That silly, cut the strings, it’s cheaper.
A hole in a bag of lime dragged on the ground will do the job for marking the dead boule line and will improve the ground too.

Incidentally, bouchon in French is for wine cork.
Tips:
Cut a cork in two and use it as target for shooting practice.
It is cheap, do not move far, do not injure and teach you to focus.

I joint one humoristic post-card for the old article-3 concerning the cercle.

a+
Jean-Philippe

Dear Bruce,
The Rule for the circle is very important rule that must be enforced 100%.

The rule for the circle is the most important rule for petanque and the sport-petanque.
The circle marks the position for the next throw.
Like in golf or snooker, the next throw is where the ball rest.

Now, it is other think when a player or umpire complaint that the circle is not perfectly round or completely closed, etc., it is only bitching.

Some player uses the rule to take advantage, by making his opponents to lose their cool with that kind of bitching.
Some umpire encourages the bitching by “punishing” the offender, without giving him a warning first.

What the opponents will do next time? They will be bitching too and soon you will feel a terrible and tense ambiance on the pistes.

That the way we want to spend our Sunday?
Enforcing stupidly the rules without learning why they are in place for?

The players whom like to play tense under that kind of ambiance, should leave petanque and start their own petanque. Everything will be regimented. No need to think how to be nice such as “do not do to other what…………….”, just conform, obey, perform and says “I am sooooocompetitive. That kind of petanque will be like any others sports which develop the skills for war.
Thus, that petanque could be called Petanque-Army.

Jean-Philippe

As I said previously, this is an “old chestnut” that’s been comprehensively covered before on these forums, with various examples of how it can be inappropriate or unsporting to “play by the rules” in some social games.

Just remember, you *must* make the distinction between “Sport-Petanque/Competition Games” and Friendly/Social games.

I’m paranoid about making any comments for fear anything will be taken personally or misconstrued, but as a general comment intended for any non-French players, if you can afford to do so I would STRONGLY advise taking a petanque holiday in Provence. Visit a number of different clubs, play in some “friendlies” and competitions, play on a variety of surfaces, including the “village square”, complete with tree roots, stones, gullies where the rain drains, ruts from the market vehicles – you’ll *never* want to play on a boring, flat terrain or complain about “stones on the terrain”. Watch some petanque videos, learn a little French and learn – and enjoy! – some of the French expressions that all help to give a “flavour” for how the game is played and appreciated, etc. Experience and get a real feel for how petanque is meant to be played.

My experience in the UK is that, whilst there is a minority of players who do have quite a bit of experience, including playing in France, many have very limited experience. Some have “read the rules” – many have not! – but lack a feel for the passion for the game you get in France. So, yes, you do get players quite happy to play all day long up and down the same lane, even though they’ve got a huge open terrain to play on.

Vive la petanque, vive les boules!

Ray

Jean-Philippe, I'm not sure what your objection to my post is. Play from where the buchon was when the point was scored is all I'm saying. I could care less about the circle as long as it's reasonably drawn. I object to your walking 10 feet to throw it. Bruce

Jean-Philippe, I, too, like to play open terrain. It's much more interesting and challenging than playing up and down the same lane. However, in a competition, you have to have marked lanes to try and avoid one game interfering with another. It does happen that the bouchon from one game will land in another and that causes difficulties and delays in play. That is unavoidable. But to have every game playing open terrain would cause chaos!

So like with everything else, common sense has to prevail.

Play open terrain when there isn't another game going on near you. Play in lanes in competitions and when other games are going on during social play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Bruce,
I did not object, I fully agree.
The principle of the circle must be applied 100%, or petanque loose its finesse.

Sorry Bruce, but I have difficulty to communicate in English, so I tend to say too much to pass my thoughts, and I confused you.

1- I should have started my post with “I agree”.
2- I should keep one subject by post;
3- I must be concise.

Thank you to give me the chance to redress it.
Jean-Philippe

Dear Barbara,
I am babbling about the permanents stringed lines you see at some clubs.

You said:
“It does happen that the bouchon from one game will land in another and that causes difficulties and delays in play. That is unavoidable. But to have every game playing open terrain would cause chaos!”

Yes, the cochonnet landing in another game IS UNAVOIDABLE, even if the STRINGS ARE IN PLACE OR NOT (the strings cannot stop it).

The lines on the side of the pistes are the throw-lines (to canalise the cochonnet at the start of the game). If the cochonnet is deplaced (eg: by shooting it) and cross the throw-line, it is still in play;

Thus, very dangerous strings are on the ground for nearly nothing, except for creating problems and gutters on the ground.

Please, removes the strings, marks the corner of each pistes with say white cement (one arrow for the direction of play). The gutters will disappear because when not all the pistes are used, the players will spread themselves on the right or left.

Furthermore, the rules allow lines (no obligatorily strings), for the “carre d’honneur”.
Ask you insurance-Co for a premium’s reduction after you remove the strings.

Regards
Jean-Philippe

Jean-Philippe,

But we play in a public park and I don't think the Council would take too kindly to our putting cement down.

Strings are a normal part of play here and everyone knows they are there. Sure, there are occasional accidents but they ARE occasional.

Strings serve a useful purpose too. There was an occasion when, during a match, the bouchon went near the string but not over it so it was still live. I pointed my boule, it touched the string but did not cross it, and rested almost on the bouchon. If there had been merely a white line there, my boule would have crossed it into the next lane and been dead and out of play.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Jean-Philippe,

You say "the principle of the circle must be applied 100%, or petanque loose its finesse". Surely that applies to all the rules, not just those governing the circle.

Regards

Barbara

Dear Barbara,

I did not know you play on council ground; I would have suggested white flour instead of more durable white cement powder.
Can you ask the council to do permanent marking with white paint?

You said that with the strings in place:
“Sure, there are occasional accidents but they ARE occasional”.
How an occasional accident is acceptable for a petanque-sport player?

As a petanque player (not a petanque-sport player), I do not find acceptable to be injured by inutile strings on the ground, with as possibility, a dislocated shoulder which will put me out of work for a while and out of play for a very long time, if ever I will recover.

Your scenario of bouchon and your boule saved by the strings is cherubic, but if the boule or the bouchon crossing that string would have been out of play, you are referring to the DEAD-BOULE-LINE which is at the perimeter of the terain (terrain comprise all the pistes.

I am talking about the THROW-LINE between the pistes.
The lines put in place just to direct and canalise the first throw of the bouchon at the start of each game. That stringed line is useless for the duration of that game.

Now, for the first time we have a clear differential appellation for the game of petanque.

Petanque and Petanque-Sport.

Do you know who play petanque-sport in France?

Jean-Philippe

Dear Barbara,

Yes, in Petanque (not petanque-sport), the rule of the circle (no 1 rule for the petanqueurs) is primordial as well as all the others rules.

The other petanque rules do not have numbers because they are not written.

They are the rules for happiness, friendship, freedom and the joy to belong to the waste international family of petanque.

Here are fews of them:
No-1- The rule of the circle.
No-2- Do not do to others why you do not want other do to you.
Do not impose you views; ask your opponent
if he/she agree:
Never use the word RULE, ask your opponent
for the:
Choice of the ground.
Colour of the cochonnet.
Distances to the cochonnet.
Gardening or not.
Boule in the hand or left on the ground.
Be patient, all the other participants are
friends and the play could be stoped quite
often for greeting the last players on the
pistes.

Greeting the players by shaking the hand
of ALL the man and a friendly kiss to ALL the
women is compulsory as well as asking news of the family.

The play is allowed to be stopped a little
longer too if one of the player need a drink
and invite your team to joint in.

Playing slowly is rude (or you are an
ignorant not knowing what to do).

To be boisterously fun is welcomed.
Communication and fun between the two teams
is necessary.

The duty of a petanque club is to make sure
that every player present will play.

The committee look after the players as
client and not as members.

A roster is necessary to insure that all the
helpers have a chance to help.


The final test to know if you where playing
petanque (again, not petanque-Sport) is:

Every time you play that game, are you
happier at the end of the day than at the
start?
If the answer is yes, you are playing
petanque.

I wish you petanque every day,

Jean-Philippe

Jean-Philippe,

No, I was talking about a string dividing two lanes. If the string had not been there, my boule would have gone into the next lane and been dead.

You have explained the difference between Petanque and Petanque-Sport before. However, in the UK, petanque is petanque. Some are "social" players and others are competition players. At club sessions, everyone plays together.

Regards

Barbara

Jean-Philippe,

The examples you quote above are not rules of the sport. They are common courtesies between players which we should all observe.

What I am talking about is the internationally agreed rules of the sport. If the rules governing the circle should be observed, then so should all the other rules. I do not wish to get into bad habits when playing. If I do, I could fall foul of an umpire and I certainly do not want that.

It seems to me that we have reached the stage where we should agree to disagree.

Regards

Barbara

Jean-Philippe,

I cannot ask our council if we can permanently mark the terrain. Firstly, it is for members of the public as well as the petanque club. Secondly, if there were permanent markings, it could be off putting when trying to play open terrain.

But thank you for your suggestions, anyway.

Regards

Barbara

Jean-Philippe has provided a very good set of “Rules” that help convey the idea of how “social” petanque should be played. It’s *exactly* what you experience if you go and play in France but is sometimes lacking from those who’ve “read the rules” but haven’t had the French petanque experience.

Barbara, with all due respect, of course there is a difference between “petanque”, i.e. “social petanque” and “sport-petanque” here in the UK. The problem is that players may not be aware of the distinction – or the terminology - and that is why you hear “you must play to the rules” without taking into account the distinction.

The differences have been well explained in these forums with many examples showing how it can be inappropriate or unsporting to insist on “playing to the rules” in some social games.

Regards,

Ray

Dear Barbara,

No, if you boule go to the next lane (piste), that boule is NOT DEAD.

That boule (or the cochonnet) are in play;
(Article-18 of the Official Rules).

Please, removes those strings (tripping strings, cause of stumble), before you get injured.

Kind regards, Jean-Philippe

Dear Barbara,

In the UK, you have only one form of organised Petanque??

In France, we have three main formats of
organised Petanques:

1- Petanque (or Petanque Traditionnelle).
2- Petanque-Sport.
3- Petanque-Sauvage (Savage-Petanque).

In addition, also the large Petanque-Loisir (Leisure-Petanque), played on Beaches, Caravan Park, own Car Drive, etc.

You said:
“In the UK, petanque is petanque. Some are “social” players and others are competition players.
At club sessions, everyone plays together”.

I marvel how, for the two genders of the Juniors, Seniors, Veterans as well as Debutants and experienced players in all of those categories:
Social-players, Traditional-players, Sport-players-Junior, a Sport-players-Senior, Savage-players and Corporate-players could play together at a club session.

only and still be happy?

Marvelous! In France, it will be a big problem for membership, especially since we do not need a club
to play petanque.

I truly need to ask questions such as:
How a club is organized to increase its membership?
How the club can find one category of players?

Can you ask at your club and let me know; I wonder!

Kind regards, Jean-Philippe

Dear Barbara,

The strings at the side of the pistes are INUTILE. If used, is ONLY TO ORGANIZE THE FIRST THROW OF THE COCHONNET at the start of each hand.

By marking discretly the corner of each pistes (lane) we will organize the game as well, without the cost, inconveniences and cumbersome use of those strings.

Also the strings are not compulsory.

Try a little white foam saucers to marks the corner of each pistes.

Kind regards, Jean-Philippe

This is a case where the rules are slightly ambiguous and 2 rules actually apply – Rule 18 refers to rule 19:

“Any boule is dead from the moment it passes into an out-of-bounds area. A boule straddling the boundary is valid. It only becomes dead after having completely crossed the boundary of the authorised terrain or dead ball line that is to say, when it is placed entirely beyond this boundary when viewed from directly above.”

In competitions the organisers will decide whether or not strings, if used, are boundaries or dead-boule lines, i.e. whether a boule or jack crossing the line during an end is live or dead, i.e. how rule 19 is to be interpreted.

This is another example of where it’s inadvisable to unquestioningly “play to the rules” – the rules aren’t always 100% clear and often a degree of common-sense or interpretation is required.

Regards,

Ray